daled12 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Support. Why should we not be able to access that information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dard Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I'm currently studying law in the Netherlands and I might give you an answer to your question. I've looked in my bible of laws and found the law which corresponds with this topic. In 2000 the law "Wet op bescherming persoonsgegevens" has been introduced in the dutch law, therefor every aspect of information which leads to revealing someone's identity is called "persoongegeven" or english termed persons credentials. Every site, company etc has a "informatieplicht", which basically means that OSBot is not allowed to publicly post anyone's details, in this case a persons e-mail adress, without their consent. OSBot is allowed to post these, if the user in question, agrees to these the terms of conditions. Users who have been banned have also the right, by law, to remove all their credentials on OSBot if they wish to do so. Hope this clarifies it a bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappster Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 I'm currently studying law in the Netherlands and I might give you an answer to your question. I've looked in my bible of laws and found the law which corresponds with this topic. In 2000 the law "Wet op bescherming persoonsgegevens" has been introduced in the dutch law, therefor every aspect of information which leads to revealing someone's identity is called "persoongegeven" or english termed persons credentials. Every site, company etc has a "informatieplicht", which basically means that OSBot is not allowed to publicly post anyone's details, in this case a persons e-mail adress, without their consent. OSBot is allowed to post these, if the user in question, agrees to these the terms of conditions. Users who have been banned have also the right, by law, to remove all their credentials on OSBot if they wish to do so. Hope this clarifies it a bit. So if this was added to the ToS this would be allowed? Still would need OSBot's lawyer to go over it, but with the way things are looking it looks like Maldesto does not want to go ahead with this idea. Thanks for taking the time to research this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RONTAG Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboozled Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Support. Users should be able to be aware of others wrong-doings & it would be some interesting reads ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explv Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 My suggestion is to show all the banned users + the reason that warranted that ban (may it be perm or temp) If there's no plugin availble, maybe you could do a monthly topic showing who was banned and for what reason (link to dispute if required) This is just for book keeping reasons. I've bought and sold a few things to now banned users, some of which I can't get a reason to why they were banned (and at risk of accounts/payments getting recovered). I'd kinda like my paranoia to be put to rest by knowing what they was banned for. Also maybe it'll be a good way for the community to see what people are getting banned for the most, and show us how we can, as one, make this place better for all of us. And now for a more controversial suggestion: Included in the above suggestion, any convicted scammer's original registered Email address is posted publicly. If there's no worry about irl repercussions, people will scam. People will still scam by creating fake emails sure, but it'll maybe make people think twice before doing it. Especially if you keep logged the original email they used to sign up with (easy to do guys cmon just another db field and a modification to the sign up page) I know these are very tricky suggestions to agree on so I'm open to criticism + suggestions. If we do it (the most active osrs site) maybe the other sites will follow suit aswell. Edit: @jackshow had a good suggestion that I think it worth adding to the OP. He suggests changing the banned group to something else where we can still rep/forums posts. Please check out and read his post here: http://osbot.org/forum/topic/110632-show-banned-users-reasons-for-ban/?p=1243309 I support having a list of banned users and the reason for them being banned. However, the email suggestion I disagree with. Consider the case where someone is falsely banned for scamming, their personal email is now released for people to abuse. Secondly, it is unlikely a scammer created their OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address anyway, and even if they have, they will just make a new account after this rule is enforced. Even if the scammer did create an OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address, what are you going to do with that information? I'm pretty sure doxing them is illegal Hacking their email is illegal So all you have done by releasing their email address is cause the above. Regardless of those points, it is probably illegal for OSBot to release that information in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshow Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 That would open up the door for possible framing. Your usergroup idea though is a good one and i like that. Going by the "Moral standards" of society these days, it isn't acceptable. Like i said though, i do agree with what jackshow said. But there is no way that it will happen. That's why I said only after they've been banned for it. After the dispute is solved I think it should be allowed. As for moral standards, that's why I said it shouldn't be encouraged, just not punished either. If we don't get punished for it, we can fuck with them all we want. As it stands, I've sat back watching my friends fuck with people who get banned because I'm too scared of getting banned for assisting with doxing / irl harassment. I'd like to do it. You can't honestly tell me that it's socially unacceptable to punish someone for committing a crime. That'd be like saying that police in real life is a bad idea. I know that comparison is a little far fetched, but if you get arrested you ruin your social life - no? All your friends and family know your dumb ass got arrested for stealing. You don't get arrested for stealing online. But we can harass them in real life and let their friends and family know that their dumb asses stole shit online. In my eyes, I view this as a much less severe punishment for the exact same crime. I don't see the problem at all. It's like a public 'police' force. As dumb as that sounds, nobody can tell me that I don't have a point here. So if this was added to the ToS this would be allowed? Still would need OSBot's lawyer to go over it, but with the way things are looking it looks like Maldesto does not want to go ahead with this idea. Thanks for taking the time to research this. Yeah, if it was added to the tos that you agree to upon account creation it'd be allowed. Granted, all the current users would have to re-agree to that. Current banned users wouldn't be able to have their shit leaked, but future ones could. I support having a list of banned users and the reason for them being banned. However, the email suggestion I disagree with. Consider the case where someone is falsely banned for scamming, their personal email is now released for people to abuse. Secondly, it is unlikely a scammer created their OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address anyway, and even if they have, they will just make a new account after this rule is enforced. Even if the scammer did create an OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address, what are you going to do with that information? I'm pretty sure doxing them is illegal Hacking their email is illegal So all you have done by releasing their email address is cause the above. Regardless of those points, it is probably illegal for OSBot to release that information in the first place. It is illegal to publicly display, yes. Not illegal to collect it yourself. That's why I said it shouldn't be encouraged - that'd be illegal. Having no punishments for it though has no correlation to osbot with legal problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappster Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 I support having a list of banned users and the reason for them being banned. However, the email suggestion I disagree with. Consider the case where someone is falsely banned for scamming, their personal email is now released for people to abuse. Secondly, it is unlikely a scammer created their OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address anyway, and even if they have, they will just make a new account after this rule is enforced. Even if the scammer did create an OSBot account with a non-throwaway email address, what are you going to do with that information? I'm pretty sure doxing them is illegal Hacking their email is illegal So all you have done by releasing their email address is cause the above. Regardless of those points, it is probably illegal for OSBot to release that information in the first place. You make a great point here. At no point should OSBot condone hacking/doxing. An email should only be released under certain circumstances such as the recent case with Pak Yak Scum. He was in CB and scammed 3+ people to take away 180m (200m+ as he got some people from within his Clan chat) and must follow some strict guidelines set by the admin/whoever is in charge. When i do a trade with a user, I ask for the login name for the account, that way I can lookup online and do a quick search for any scams. A personal email may be linked to paypal for example. This is just an extra check I can do to ensure that the user is not a scammer (yes I understand you can add extra emails to paypal and remove it, but we are not going after the people who are aware, those guys always find a way). If this was my forums, there would be very strict guidlines in which a users email would be released. 1 report is clearly not enough but 3 over the course of 24 hours is enough to determine if a user has scam quit from the site - like the case with Pak Yak Scum. NL (osbot is hosted in nl) law states that if the user consents to the email being released, there's fuck all they can do (lawyers still need to double check this). A change to a ToS and an option to shut down your OSBot account during the ToS change should be implimented if this was to actually happen. I understand your concerns with releasing emails but as stated. Very strict guidelines need to be met before that information is released. This is all possible to do in a legal manner aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decode Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 That's why I said only after they've been banned for it. After the dispute is solved I think it should be allowed. As for moral standards, that's why I said it shouldn't be encouraged, just not punished either. If we don't get punished for it, we can fuck with them all we want. As it stands, I've sat back watching my friends fuck with people who get banned because I'm too scared of getting banned for assisting with doxing / irl harassment. I'd like to do it. You can't honestly tell me that it's socially unacceptable to punish someone for committing a crime. That'd be like saying that police in real life is a bad idea. I know that comparison is a little far fetched, but if you get arrested you ruin your social life - no? All your friends and family know your dumb ass got arrested for stealing. You don't get arrested for stealing online. But we can harass them in real life and let their friends and family know that their dumb asses stole shit online. In my eyes, I view this as a much less severe punishment for the exact same crime. I don't see the problem at all. It's like a public 'police' force. As dumb as that sounds, nobody can tell me that I don't have a point here. Yeah, if it was added to the tos that you agree to upon account creation it'd be allowed. Granted, all the current users would have to re-agree to that. Current banned users wouldn't be able to have their shit leaked, but future ones could. It is illegal to publicly display, yes. Not illegal to collect it yourself. That's why I said it shouldn't be encouraged - that'd be illegal. Having no punishments for it though has no correlation to osbot with legal problems. Doubt many would disagree on the concept, but plenty will disagree regarding it actually being implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshow Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Doubt many would disagree on the concept, but plenty will disagree regarding it actually being implemented. Because many want to scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decode Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Because many want to scam. Although that might be the case, its all if's and but's. You can "guess" if a user wants to scam but you cant back it up with any evidence until they actually do, amiright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappster Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 Although that might be the case, its all if's and but's. You can "guess" if a user wants to scam but you cant back it up with any evidence until they actually do, amiright? A registered email is enough to discourage a majority of people from scamming. Personal information is the only weapon we have against these types of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshow Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Although that might be the case, its all if's and but's. You can "guess" if a user wants to scam but you cant back it up with any evidence until they actually do, amiright? Of course. That's why you implement measures against it. Aka, punishments. Which is the exact same thing that's happened in real life. If you steal $50 from someone in real life, a punch to the face should be expected. Nobody will frown you for doing it. - Zappa That's completely true. So why is stealing $50 from someone online suddenly grants you a safespace and you can't be touched? It's literally the exact same thing. You're stealing $50. The only thing we can do to people online is fuck with them in real life, why's that so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decode Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 A registered email is enough to discourage a majority of people from scamming. Personal information is the only weapon we have against these types of people. I highly doubt so. Whats stopping people from using fake emails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappster Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 I highly doubt so. Whats stopping people from using fake emails? Nothing at all. That's why you take the registered email. 9/10 that registered email is going to be linked to one they have used somewhere else. Somewhere that has maybe had a database breach which is currently public (or private, soon to be public). How many of these 12-16 year old kids who scam know about propper opsec? How many of these kids can say "well, yeah, I can risk scamming these people they will never find out who i am hahah" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
