Why I think that Jagex isn't using something to monitor all accounts at all times(Mouse and keyboard).

[RoundBox]

Lets take a look at something small scale.

I have a mouse recording of myself performing 5 inventories of a bank standing skill. Now this particular skill requires 2 clicks per item. This totals roughly 60 clicks + a small amount of mouse movement for a full inventory + banking. 

The size of this script is 82Kb. A full rotation of this script takes roughly 3 minutes for the full script to complete it's 5 inventories.

 

Using this as a baseline (Actions per minute could be higher or lower per player but just go along with me on this).

Currently as I write this post there is over 38k players online.

If Jagex was to record mouse movements alone and everyone was to have the same actions per minute as my script in that 3 minutes, Jagex would have to record and save 3.116GB of data.

For an hour 62.32GB of data

and finally for a 24 hour period 1.48TB of data.

 

Player counts and Actions per minute will vary wildly across the day but what I am trying to get across is the sheer amount of data storage required to monitor accounts is simply not viable. even with cloud based storage, This becomes an expensive endeavour.

 

I hope that what i'm trying to convey makes sense, please provide your feedback, I look forward to seeing what you think about this.

 

[Beezmans]

18 minutes ago, iBenediction said:

Lets take a look at something small scale.

I have a mouse recording of myself performing 5 inventories of a bank standing skill. Now this particular skill requires 2 clicks per item. This totals roughly 60 clicks + a small amount of mouse movement for a full inventory + banking. 

The size of this script is 82Kb. A full rotation of this script takes roughly 3 minutes for the full script to complete it's 5 inventories.

 

Using this as a baseline (Actions per minute could be higher or lower per player but just go along with me on this).

Currently as I write this post there is over 38k players online.

If Jagex was to record mouse movements alone and everyone was to have the same actions per minute as my script in that 3 minutes, Jagex would have to record and save 3.116GB of data.

For an hour 62.32GB of data

and finally for a 24 hour period 1.48TB of data.

 

Player counts and Actions per minute will vary wildly across the day but what I am trying to get across is the sheer amount of data storage required to monitor accounts is simply not viable. even with cloud based storage, This becomes an expensive endeavour.

 

I hope that what i'm trying to convey makes sense, please provide your feedback, I look forward to seeing what you think about this.

 

1.48 tb= like 150$/day of storage? why can't they???

[RoundBox]

10 minutes ago, Beezmans said:

1.48 tb= like 150$/day of storage? why can't they???

1.48TB is based on having an average of 38k players for the entire day, these numbers jump up massively throughout peak times, players such as pkers of pvm will have higher APM which would increase the amount of data that is saved, consider 1.48TB almost a bare minimum amount of storage required per day and the actual figure much much higher.

 

Also i'm not sure where you got that number from. A quick google search for me revealed that most business charge $6.99-$9.99 USD per month for only 1TB of cloud storage. An amount that would be used in less than 24 hours.

 

EDIT: Even with your figure, that is $54,750 Annual spent simply on cloud storage for anti-botting measure. Whilst not impossible, do you think it's realistic?

Edited August 29, 2018 by iBenediction

[lummyboy]

i think the reason that random mouse movements are still a big must have, is bc the mods probably have the ability to watch ones screen if they are suspicious of bot-like behaviour. maybe the movements are enough to stop further review?, idk and i dont think we will ever know but yes you are right they deffs cant be recording our movements. just detecting our client, but bc of what must go into that detection there will only be a short list of the biggest offenders going through that detection process. that's my theory anyway, we can only speculate but if bank standing methods are pretty much unbannable with mouse recordings its obvious their main banning system runs through the likes of detection and manual judgment.

[Juggles]

1 hour ago, lummyboy said:

i think the reason that random mouse movements are still a big must have, is bc the mods probably have the ability to watch ones screen if they are suspicious of bot-like behaviour. maybe the movements are enough to stop further review?, idk and i dont think we will ever know but yes you are right they deffs cant be recording our movements. just detecting our client, but bc of what must go into that detection there will only be a short list of the biggest offenders going through that detection process. that's my theory anyway, we can only speculate but if bank standing methods are pretty much unbannable with mouse recordings its obvious their main banning system runs through the likes of detection and manual judgment.

Mod do not watch your screens. I repeat, they do not watch your screens. There are thousands of bots, why would they choose to watch one single screen to check? 
They have an automated system that can detect botting. 

[lummyboy]

12 minutes ago, Juggles said:

Mod do not watch your screens. I repeat, they do not watch your screens. There are thousands of bots, why would they choose to watch one single screen to check? 
They have an automated system that can detect botting. 

would they not have the power to? i understand it wouldnt be efficient practice but if they go to botting hotspots identify bot movements, (not hard at all, as we can do this in a matter of secs/mins) what stops them from pushing further investigation. its paranioa kicking in if you think someones checking acc's at random but whos to say they dont pick wisely? or maybe they go straight to the "oh thats an unofficial game client" and ban those using runelite and osbuddy aswell? hey just speculation just like your statement might be, im clearly not enforcing this thought as fact 

[Juggles]

25 minutes ago, lummyboy said:

would they not have the power to? i understand it wouldnt be efficient practice but if they go to botting hotspots identify bot movements, (not hard at all, as we can do this in a matter of secs/mins) what stops them from pushing further investigation. its paranioa kicking in if you think someones checking acc's at random but whos to say they dont pick wisely? or maybe they go straight to the "oh thats an unofficial game client" and ban those using runelite and osbuddy aswell? hey just speculation just like your statement might be, im clearly not enforcing this thought as fact 

The bot busting team is very small. Im not sure on the exact ratio but its probably like 1-5k bots per bot buster. No one can keep track of 1-5k bots. 

There's probably more bots than this but that's just an estimate 

[Isolate]

 

5 hours ago, iBenediction said:

The size of this script is 82Kb. A full rotation of this script takes roughly 3 minutes for the full script to complete it's 5 inventories.
Using this as a baseline (Actions per minute could be higher or lower per player but just go along with me on this).
Currently as I write this post there is over 38k players online.
If Jagex was to record mouse movements alone and everyone was to have the same actions per minute as my script in that 3 minutes, Jagex would have to record and save 3.116GB of data.
For an hour 62.32GB of data
and finally for a 24 hour period 1.48TB of data.

I hope that what i'm trying to convey makes sense, please provide your feedback, I look forward to seeing what you think about this.

 

mmmm
is more like
1.577mb/second
5.6772gb/hour
136.25gb/day
which is very doable i suppose but it depends how long they store the data they take or whether they compute it down to simpler values and compare those so they don't have to store alot which
is more likely the case

[Trainwreck]

Yeah your right, but as I imagine they will have a similar tool to winrar etc.. it compresses everyone's info and when they need it they can extract to view the contents. Which means to view your clickrates they will have to manually check everyone's accounts individually, which ofcourse would take a long period of time. I think they use clickrates for fresh accounts because they are more likely to bot compared to mains. Hope this makes sense! 

[Karthus NA]

I think what we're agreeing on is we need to find someone in Jagex who's willing to go double agent to assist the botting community.

[Knuckolls]

2 minutes ago, face of dead said:

I think what we're agreeing on is we need to find someone in Jagex who's willing to go double agent to assist the botting community.

I'm pretty sure there isn't someone like that. Not going to lie but Money can always corrupt someone to do your bidding or a communities bidding. I'm sure there have been influential (other communities, maybe even our own that we don't know about) that have ensured that certain entities are allowed to stay in business. There are tens of gold, item, account selling sites. Gambling sites, etc that all revolve around Runescape and Jagex knows this. Why in the world do you think this game is still alive? Jagex "Gets rid of the bots" but in all reality the game depends on Bots for economy, etc.

Without the botting communities Jagex wouldn't have a successful game. Just take a peek at RS3 after the BotNuke in 2011/12.

[Karthus NA]

9 minutes ago, Knuckolls said:

I'm pretty sure there isn't someone like that. Not going to lie but Money can always corrupt someone to do your bidding or a communities bidding. I'm sure there have been influential (other communities, maybe even our own that we don't know about) that have ensured that certain entities are allowed to stay in business. There are tens of gold, item, account selling sites. Gambling sites, etc that all revolve around Runescape and Jagex knows this. Why in the world do you think this game is still alive? Jagex "Gets rid of the bots" but in all reality the game depends on Bots for economy, etc.



Without the botting communities Jagex wouldn't have a successful game. Just take a peek at RS3 after the BotNuke in 2011/12. 

Lmao I was mostly joking man, but money absolutely corrupts - just look at A Friend's deteriorating career. He struggled to create new content and eventually just accepted more and more offers of instant cash and look at what happened.

I'm sure with the right incentive anything is possible.

 

[Knuckolls]

5 minutes ago, face of dead said:

Lmao I was mostly joking man, but money absolutely corrupts - just look at A Friend's deteriorating career. He struggled to create new content and eventually just accepted more and more offers of instant cash and look at what happened.

I'm sure with the right incentive anything is possible.

 

Well I mean even though you were joking, you actually did say something that could quite honestly be possible.. Weren't a few Jmods fired for working with (other) botting communities and RWT-ing?

 

[Karthus NA]

Yeah, there was actually one mod who I think bug abused corp beast and also abused other glitches and made mils through staking... Just looked it up, dude's name was Mod Reach.

[Knuckolls]

Just now, face of dead said:

Yeah, there was actually one mod who I think bug abused corp beast and also abused other glitches and made mils through staking... Just looked it up, dude's name was Mod Reach.

Yup! That's who I was trying to think of, Yeah so now with your previous statements and already there being a history of at least 1 Jmod using glitches to benefit himself who knows what some of these Jmods are doing. Its very possible that they are abusing their power and RWTing themselves...

Just some food for thought. Good topic that you brought up.